Jaf Kurd Bagface

[Joel Greifinger]

they all have their bird's foot border combined with another element, and they all have a little dotted bar separating the elements of the border, instead of the white bar that usually goes with the pure bird's foot border.

Hi Dinie,

I found the other published bag face that I mentioned that also shares the border you describe. It was in an exhibition that Michael Rothberg co-curated at ACOR 3 in 1996 (Hali 86 p. 95) and from his collection:

https://i.postimg.cc/9fDcjqQH/ACOR-3-Rothberg-1996.png

It would be interesting to see whether your second bag face has offset knotting or not. And just to keep matters from getting too easy, :pie: there is also this type of Kurdish yastiks from eastern Anatolia:

https://i.postimg.cc/K8ZsSrjR/E-Anatolian-yastik.jpg

Joel

[Dinie Gootjes]

Hi Joel,

Great work finding the one example that kicks the legs from under my 'dotted bars' theory. Thank you so much.

:applause:

:rant: :madgo: :thumbsdown:

[Dinie Gootjes]

But I got to use my favourite 'rant' smiley :rant:, so all is well ;-).

Joel, I don't have a picture of the back of the second bag face you asked about, but there are a few close-ups. It looks to me that it has a few scattered instances of offset knotting in the borders, but there is nothing predictable or systematic about it. Is far as I can see, the red bottom line of the central medallion is offset in relation to the rows above and below it. As it is not a diagonal, I don't see how that has any function. Weaver's flub?

I also found another instance of the border variant of the scarab we were talking about. This rug with a lattice consisting of dotted lines.

https://i.postimg.cc/XN9QngM3/John-Howe-Blog-Dec-29-2009-7.jpg

[Joel Greifinger]

Hi Dinie,

I used to think that the dotted lattice was an unusual touch, until I started looking for it. :dancer: The one that you show is one of three that were part of Gordon Priest's presentations at the Textile Museum in both 2013 and 2020. These are the other two:

https://i.postimg.cc/BQPM1jpc/Jaf-Gordon1.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/RZrG1vbr/Jaf-Gordon4.jpg

And here, to prove there are others not belonging to Priest :deadhorse:, are a couple more:

https://i.postimg.cc/mgQj8K0P/Jaf-Hans-dotted.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/PJRVnZ4N/Dotted-bright.jpg

There is a type with the dotted lattice that I think is more unusual. These are torba-sized and the shallowness of the diamonds obviates the need for offset knotting to create smooth diagonals. One of them was posted on Turkotek years back by Wendel Swann in a Jaf discussion that was referenced earlier:

https://i.postimg.cc/gcg26JjJ/Wendel-Jaf-w-elem.jpg

Another was on the cover of James Cohen's catalog for one of his Jaf exhibitions:

https://i.postimg.cc/MTCL41K5/Cohen-cover-Jaf.jpg

And these are a couple of others that I have picked up along the way.

https://i.postimg.cc/RVWbQsSt/Dotted-Jaf1.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/59Rs0BB2/Jaf-dotted-Yunus.jpg

I've only seen one or two others of this type. No doubt there are more out there. :yin_yang:

Joel

[Dinie Gootjes]

Hi Joel,

Your two bag faces are strikingly similar to each other, great finds! The main difference seems to be the intensity of the palette, especially the yellow. The position of the variously coloured diamonds is almost exactly the same. The way you placed them, they are virtually mirror images. Seeing the difference in elem and inner border, besides the colours, they are not two halves of the same bag, but have you ever speculated that they could be from the same weaver? :dancer: And do I spy a nice purple in the lighter coloured one? Which by the way is my favourite, I think. Which one do other people like best?

I found a few 'different' dotted borders.

Coloured dots:

https://i.postimg.cc/g2R2JZ5N/The-Tribal-Looms-RR-1-a-2-x3-2.jpg

Fun sides:

https://i.postimg.cc/BvPYR2hc/Tribal-Rugs-Gallery-RR-2-a-64x79.jpg

Some rugs are more different than others:

https://i.postimg.cc/QdCb5XsB/Wayne-Barron-RR-23-bagface-from-another-planet.jpg

[Joel Greifinger]

And do I spy a nice purple in the lighter coloured one? Which by the way is my favourite, I think.

Hi Dinie,

I think that one is my favorite, too. :cheers: And, it does have a very nice purple in various locations:

https://i.postimg.cc/d1F20tr8/Dotted-det.jpg

Beyond the three I posted, I've found only one other example that I can remember of this type of Jaf with a dotted-lattice and without offset knotting in the shallow diagonal field diamonds. It resembled the Cohen example and my two in terms of palette and diamond minor borders. The outlier seems to be the one that Wendel Swan posted with the great green elem.

Joel

[Dinie Gootjes]

That rug of Wendel's truly is an outlier in this context. I think it fits almost better with another group of Kurdish chuvals that tend to have a Memling gul elem on a dark green ground, and the same general lay out, though the field has another Memling gul, and the border has double Cs. Here is mine:

https://i.postimg.cc/pdj0W098/trhee-memling-gul-002.jpg

Another one:

https://i.postimg.cc/wBxhP0Xg/Douglas-Stock-2-8-x-3-6-kurdish-green-skirt-ws.jpg

And one that seems to have closure tabs above the elem :confused: :

https://i.postimg.cc/fL9kg9rM/Robert-Fritz-Oriental-Rugs-2.jpg

Besides these, I found two more of the type. Wendel's beauty seems to fall in between these and the dotted lattice rugs Joel showed. I wish we knew more about who exactly wove the many distinct types of what we call Jaffs. Or Jafs.

[Joel Greifinger]

Dinie,

I really like your Memling gul bag face. :clap:

Interestingly, while the field diamonds aren't offset knotted in the dotted torbas that I posted, there is offset knotting in the elems of at least two of them.

Wendel Swan's:

https://i.postimg.cc/8cD4T1cK/Wendel-elem.jpg

And the one from the Cohen catalog:

https://i.postimg.cc/4dpwCKfH/Cohen-Mete-elem.jpg

Is there any offset knotting in any of the Memling elem types that you posted?

Joel

[Dinie Gootjes]

Hi Joel,

I see the offset knotting in the Cohen example, but I cannot find any in the skirt of Wendel Swan's bag. Do you mean in the 'rays' of the stars in the Memling guls? I can clearly see vertical stacks of knots all through, almost like corduroy. With offset knotting the lines are diagonal. Mine does not have it, nor do the others as far as I can see. Here is the back of mine, plus the back of another one that I didn't show above.

https://i.postimg.cc/sgK9D1wS/trhee-memling-gul-004.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/zBb3fFT6/thedigitalnomad-back.jpg

[Joel Greifinger]

Do you mean in the 'rays' of the stars in the Memling guls?

Dinie,

It looked to me like the diagonals that made up the diamond in the central rectangle of the middle Memling gul was offset knotted. Unfortunately, the image that I have of the bag face is not high-res enough to get the really good close-up look that would lend more confidence to my quick appraisal. :nerd2:

Joel

[Dinie Gootjes]

so I'm waiting until those are depleted and we move on to field motifs that don't go to the border and as a result there is an absurd fill pattern in the void space...

Chuck, I guess you mean the UFO Jaffs? :laughing_1: Here are mine, now let's see yours and anyone else's! I have a weakness for these. Some have the dark voids of space encroaching deeper into the field.

https://i.postimg.cc/ZYscq5RQ/Jaff-sidebars-001.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/3x1jP8P9/Jaff-greenish-001.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/90HqDK6r/Jaff-search-Mpl-RR.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/LsrJWG6N/Space-ships-Kurd-001.jpg

[Joel Greifinger]

While we wait :felix: patiently, for those 'UFO Jafs', what can be said of this other type? Are these Jaf, or even Kurdish? Some elements suggest SW Persian or Luri, but there are suggestions of other possible origins, as well.

Thought, opinions, speculations and wild guesses all welcome. :sp:

https://i.postimg.cc/B6dz2jjH/Alt-Jaf-Ben.png

https://i.postimg.cc/FH47DpMn/Alt-Jaf-HP.jpg

Joel

[Dinie Gootjes]

Hi Joel,

Those last ones you show remind me of a type of Jaff or whatever they are, with a scarab with arrow shaped top and bottom. They all seem to be in the square format, often have an arrow border, and all I can find have the quincunx secondary border, like your examples. A few random ones:

https://i.postimg.cc/13qd8Mf6/Sean-RR-1-a.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/ZRSPwxbG/Gunduz-RR-9-a-60x46-375-euro-cotton-warp-repair.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/HnKVhT0r/Gunduz-RR-9-b.jpg

The next one has the same border one of yours has. There is probably no offset knotting, but the whole drawing looks a bit wonky and 'off'.

https://i.postimg.cc/j2KbqmsM/Ron-Hort-RR-2-2.jpg

I have seen these sold as Luri, but I also seem to remember that Peter Stone calls these scarabs "Iranian Jaff". So that is another possibility thrown in.

[Joel Greifinger]

Peter Stone calls these scarabs "Iranian Jaff".

Hi Dinie,

The decidedly Northwest Persian flavor of the border on some of these adds a bit of support to Stone's attribution. Here is a non-diamond bag of that ilk:

https://i.postimg.cc/x8C2jNFx/NW-Persian-bf-Pouler.jpg

Joel

[Dinie Gootjes]

Hi Joel,

Looking back through the thread, I realize that Chris Countryman's bag face with the dinosaurs in frame #52 also has the Iranian Jaff scarabs, while the beginning of the field has a NWP look about it. Another indication for it being an Iranian variant?

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/Countryman-Jaf.jpg

[Chuck Wagner]

Hi Dinie

I think the biggest clue is the Herati field design that was abandoned about 1/5 through the job.

Someone must have stuck their head into the tent and said something like: Now is Herati bag market collapse, now all is dealer wants is Jaff.....

:money:

Cheers
Chuck

[Dinie Gootjes]

Hi Chuck,

while the beginning of the field has a NWP look about it.

Sorry, the Herati is what I meant with the quoted remark, but I agree I was not very clear. :cheers:

[Joel Greifinger]

Hi Dinie,

Going back to the bag faces that you posted in #87 with a central Memling gul medallion in the field, there are some other Kurdish chuvals with other central medallions that seem likely to be either Jaf or Sanjabi. These are a couple of the type:

https://i.postimg.cc/3xHMJvjk/Medallion-Sanjabi.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/Qdg2BdS0/Owen-med-copy.jpg

Joel

[Joel Greifinger]

Hi all,

There's one more bag face design that is frequently attributed as Jaf. Here are some of the type:

https://i.postimg.cc/qvPcFmc6/JG-alt-Jaf.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/5NG8HPRK/Marvadim-alt-Jaf.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/PxhWXPRt/Memarian-alt-Jaf.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/Kj8tTCbw/Mete-alt-Jaf-double.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/0QfpbPT7/Vojdani-alt-Jaf.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/66MrK6LX/Wayne-alt-Jaf.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/FzC3VGsR/Wayne-small-alt-Jaf.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/TYhr38CW/Wayne2-alt-Jaf.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/7LS1rgXs/Wayne3-alt-Jaf.jpg

Joel

[Dinie Gootjes]

Hi Joel,

Your two batches of 'different' Jaffs often have borders and backs that seem to indicate their close relationship with the typical scarab in diamond Jaffs. What do you think about the two panel chuvals? Here is one that has retained part of its very Jaff looking back.

https://i.postimg.cc/bYVnQs3X/00-39-jaf-kurd-mafrash.jpg

Format and borders are very similar to one of my Jaffs:

https://i.postimg.cc/5tfjcVnq/Golden-Jaff-Gunduz-001.jpg

I think they are most often called Sanjabi, but why? Or will I have to address my Jaff above as "Dear Sanjabi"?