Jaf Kurd Bagface

[Dinie Gootjes]

Hi Chris,

I agree with Chuck, that is a great piece, so much fun to look at. I too would have bought it in a flash. A question: are the closure tabs with the Tyrannosaurs piled?

[Joel Greifinger]

Hi Chris,

Those are some of the coolest closure tabs ever. :clap: And, are those orange warps? :p

That unusual Mina Khani 'internal elem' immediately brought to mind this Jaf bag (using not diamonds in the field, but hexagons often seen in Jaf rugs) where the weaver used a similar juxtaposition:

https://i.postimg.cc/ZnnTmgTP/Jaf-Reyn.jpg

Joel

[Dinie Gootjes]

Hi Joel and all,

A few posts back we were talking about the different methods weavers can use to transition between offset knots and the regular stacked knots. Tonight I took a magnifying glass and a stack of about ten Jaffs, to try to see how it works in reality. Especially with dark wefts and a dark field it was not easy to make out what had happened, but as far as I could see, in most cases there is not one method the weaver uses in a certain bag face, but several. I found two knots on three warps, single knots on three warps, and skipped warps. Most transitions were right at the edge of the innermost border, but sometimes they could be found a few knots into the field. Often there would be mostly skipped warps, or mostly shared warps, with the occasional other type thrown in. In one case I got the impression the weaver had a regular system going: first row skip a warp, third row one knot on three warps, fifth row two knots on three warps, seventh row skip again etc. But there are a lot of knots at the edge of ten rugs, so I just looked at a few spots on each bag. Even in cases where the sides were not filled in with diamonds, but with one colour wool, the transition tended to be at or near the edge. But if there was a floating 'thingie' with straight vertical edges in that area, the poor weaver had to do an extra transition of course. Has anyone else had a look at their Jaff(s)?

[Filiberto Boncompagni]

Chris sent the close-ups Chuck requested.

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/Countryman_bag_1.jpg

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/Countryman_bag_2.jpg

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/Countryman_bag_3.jpg

I sharpened the last one. I don't see offset knotting, but I am generally no good in this kind of visual analysis. Does anybody see it?

[unregistered]

HI All,
The tabs are pile. I like the hats that the dinosaurs are wearing. Stylish.

The warps are brown and white Z. It is my floor that looks orange.

The different bags with one, two, or three rows of reciprocating hooks shows how creative a weavers can be within the same theme.

Best to all,
Chris

[Joel Greifinger]

Hi all,

The weaver of Chris's bag face certainly eschewed predictability. :yin_yang: From what I can discern, some of the diagonals are executed with offset knotting, while many aren't. And, while much of the bag appears to be single-wefted, it looks like some may be double-wefted. :dancer:

On the subject of diamond bags without offset knotting :rofl: , a bag that Dinie posted back in post # 16 is interesting:

https://i.postimg.cc/5NPFGxbn/Shiv-RR-5-a-Bidjar-not-Jaff.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/DyV2wH5n/Shiv-RR-5-b.jpg

Though it's hard to tell for sure because of the depressed warps, it looks to me like these diagonals aren't offset knotted. Perhaps it's not surprising, given the structure, that it's attributed to Bijar rather than as Jaf.

There is a group of presumably Jaf bags that don't use offset knotting for the diagonals in the field diamonds, but I think I'll leave those for another post.

Joel

[Chris Countryman]

Hi all,

The weaver of Chris's bag face certainly eschewed predictability. :yin_yang: From what I can discern, some of the diagonals are executed with offset knotting, while many aren't. And, while much of the bag appears to be single-wefted, it looks like some may be double-wefted.

Good eye Joel. The outer color of most of the diamonds is usually off-set knotting, although some of lines proceed with an extra weft for one to three rows. Is there a term for it when most of the bag is diagonals and the weaver can then off-set each row?

It is hard to tell whether some rows are double-wefted; the depression of the warps can make it hard to tell whether the weft isn't just buried under the pile.

Chris

[Dinie Gootjes]

Hi Joel,

There is another picture of the 'Bidjar Jaff', which shows clearly that the diagonals are offset knotted. You can count the knot collars in the diamonds: 1 2 3 4 etc. Sometimes loss of pile is an advantage :flush: .

https://i.postimg.cc/m24h2BrT/Shiv-RR-5-c.jpg

[Joel Greifinger]

Hi Dinie,

These do look offset from the front. When I look at the photo of the back that I reposted from your earlier post, at the diamond on the top right with the abrashed green moving up towards the border, the knots don't look offset. Maybe it’s the warp depression, or perhaps zooming in (since I've misplaced my magnifier :() is distorting my view.

Joel

[Dinie Gootjes]

Hi Joel,

In this case, where the (mostly partial) warp depression is very irregular, it is difficult to judge from the back whether the knots are offset or not, because you have to decide for each knot whether both nodes are visible or whether one of the two is hidden, partially or completely. Luckily, the picture of the front shows many places where you can see and count the knots. Besides that, the sides of the diamonds and the lattice are straight, without the wobbles you would get if the weaver was truly inconsistent in her offsetting.
Lastly, the tops of the cartouches with the S figures in the side borders show what the diamonds would have looked like without offset knotting. A less steep angle, and clearly stepped lines, like you see in rugs without offset knotting. You can clearly see the difference in this screenshot of the zoomed in picture of the front.

https://i.postimg.cc/25gKHdKD/Screenshot-2020-11-03-Rare-Bijar-Area-Bagface-Not-Jaf-rugrabbit-com-1.jpg

[Joel Greifinger]

Hi Dinie,

Thanks. I'll move it from the equivocally-knotted to the offset pile :cheers: Which raises, once again, whether some other Kurdish groups in Iran also sometimes used offset knotting, in addition to Jaf weavers in the Iran-Iraq border region. Perhaps we should devote some examination to other examples of Kurdish diamond-field bags with depressed warps. :nerd:

Joel

[Dinie Gootjes]

Hi Joel,

To start the procession (I hope) of diamond bags with depressed warps, here are two from the virtual collection. I have another one in my actual possession, but I need to take pictures tomorrow.

https://i.postimg.cc/4x9KzCxt/Anthony-Fahmie-RR-3-a-3-x3-395.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/T1Bdwwms/Anthony-Fahmie-RR-3-b.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/zD4H3XJ5/Patrick-Pouler-RR-7-a.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/QCZsGP3L/Patrick-Pouler-RR-7-c.jpg

Both have somewhat unusual palettes for a Jaff, though both also have offset knotting (don't ask me how I know, my eyes are still sore and tired :mad:).

[Joel Greifinger]

Hi Dinie,

I've tended to associate Jaf diamond bags with warp depression with a particular type of small diamond field design with a bird's foot border, probably because I have one of the sort:

https://i.postimg.cc/3N4WxfBn/W-Opie-Jaf.jpg

I know I've seen some others, but can't seem to locate the proof. :nerd2:

The only other I can come up with is this:

https://i.postimg.cc/SQ3JvqS5/Warp-front.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/J0f0D3Ym/Warp-back.jpg

The great majority of examples with the bird's foot border don't have depressed warps. We were briefly on their worthy path back in posts #42 & 44, but, as is the way of all threads, got waylaid. :laughing_1:

[Filiberto Boncompagni]

OK, here are mine:

A fresh photo

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/Fili_Kurd_back_det.j pg

of the "chuval" one - i.e. this:

http://www.turkotek.com/salon_00088/s88t6_files/Kurdface2.jpg

an an old photo of the double bag:

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/Fili_Kurd_doublebag_ det.jpg

I would say moderate warp depression for both of them...

[Chuck Wagner]

Greetings all,

Finally, something to contribute that ties with the current topic.

And, I think, an anomaly.

This is a bag that I posted in the Bumping Bottoms tome, but we didn't touch on this characteristic.

In the second image, it is clear that the weaver changed her mind - or - had taken down the loom and set it up again, resulting in an abrupt change to weft tensions that manifests as a one-row change from depressed warps, to undepressed warps. Go figure:

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/JKUR00.jpg

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/JKUR08.jpg

Separately, note the vertical bars on either side of the field. This is a complete bag, although now opened, long and flat. This "feature" appears in both of the bag faces.

Regards
Chuck

[Joel Greifinger]

Filiberto,

I don't seem to be able to make out any warp depression on the back of your first example (the chuval) in post #74. The paired knot 'nodes' look flat to me. :nerd2:

Is it just my aging eyes, once again? :(

Joel

[Dinie Gootjes]

Hi All,

Here is another one I have with warp depression.

https://i.postimg.cc/L5Qgw10k/Second-faux-Jaff-002.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/wx4t6D0L/Second-faux-Jaff-004.jpg

And then what Joel describes as "particular type of small diamond field design with a bird's foot border". That says it all while saying very little. :clap:

Here is one with deep warp depression:

https://i.postimg.cc/QxP0W9xW/Jaff-faux-1.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/MGtBVNbr/Jaff-faux-2.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/Bn4cFTfb/Jaff-faux-5.jpg

And a very similar one without:

https://i.postimg.cc/YS44L00j/Jaff-Joe-Beck-via-Joel-1.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/zDkfBK70/Jaff-Joe-Beck-via-Joel-3.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/T1HMbdpY/Jaff-Joe-Beck-via-Joel-5.jpg

Even the palette of the two is similar, but the weave couldn't be more different.

Funny thing is that Jaffs with this field quite often have four white scarabs (it looks like one of mine has five, but that is just an early purple gone white rather nicely), which is pretty rare in other types, I think.
If they have a bird's foot border, it practically always is of the 'snakey' type. My last one clearly shows the colourful snake winding its way around the partial white bars. The first one and also Joel's example are less clear, but they all have at least one knot of the white bar missing. I don't think I have seen a Jaff with this field with a fully boxed bird's foot border, like in this example.

https://i.postimg.cc/90LGdM3S/Groen-e-Bay-10-a.jpg

[Filiberto Boncompagni]

Filiberto,

I don't seem to be able to make out any warp depression on the back of your first example (the chuval) in post #74. The paired knot 'nodes' look flat to me

Right. :flush:

Ok, let's say chuval with "slight ribbed back".

Filiberto

[Joel Greifinger]

Hi all,

Back in post #44, I included this bag face among the types with the 'bird's foot' border. More notably, it has an uncommon type of Jaf diamond field design.

https://i.postimg.cc/Df9K97PL/Jaf-w-alternative-diamonds.jpg

I have seen a few, but not many, others. I seem to remember coming across one published example, but can't seem to find it, now that I'm looking. :cry: Here are a couple that I've located:


https://i.postimg.cc/k484XDW2/Alt-Jaf-Ben.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/TPB16n58/Alt-Jaf-Groen.png

I think the motif in the field is more often seen in the border of another type of Jaf bag that has a field motif more often found in Jaf rugs than bags:

https://i.postimg.cc/ZnnTmgTP/Jaf-Reyn.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/d3Y07v94/Vedat-Jaf-rug-med-bf.png

Are there other examples to share? Has anyone else seen that elusive published one?

Joel

[Dinie Gootjes]

Hi All,

I could only find one more of the Jaffs with the unusual field. It is very close to Joel's one, but with a completely different palette.

https://i.postimg.cc/V6hW56rj/Cyberrug-RR-2-2-20x1-6-275.jpg

It is funny that despite the great differences in palette, they all have their bird's foot border combined with another element, and they all have a little dotted bar separating the elements of the border, instead of the white bar that usually goes with the pure bird's foot border.

Here is one other instance of the border variation of the scarab. I could not find any obvious Jaff with it.

https://i.postimg.cc/VLKXTk19/Brian-Macdonald-RR-1-a.jpg