Jaf Kurd Bagface

[Joel Greifinger]

While I stall about choosing favorites (and hope that others will jump in with their choices), I'm posting this pair of bag faces from the Marc Feldman collection that were published in Timbuktu to Tibet, in order to get them 'on the record'. They strikingly exemplify the Hopkins ideal of "'random' juxtaposition of identical design elements appearing in widely varying color combinations." :clap:

https://i.postimg.cc/8zJHVpW6/Feldman-Jaf.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/JzfQrfcd/Feldman-Jaf2.jpg

Maybe we can see some more eye candy to expand the pool. :wizard:

Joel

[Lloyd Kannenberg]

Hello All,

I'm a little late to the party, but not for want of interest. Mark Hopkins' article was my introduction to Jafs, and his very last figure got me started on the 'bleeding into the border' subgroup. They are not rare (I'm sure Dinie's inventory is well supplied with them), but not common either. I think the 'bird's foot' border in Mark's second figure is considerably scarcer. Anyway, for what it's worth here are a couple of contributions to the pile of diamonds.

This one is about 27" on a side, with obvious condition problems. Not as civilized as other examples in this thread, but I like it anyway. You have to look carefully to see the red figure on the red ground of the upper left diamond.

https://i.postimg.cc/PJqfVnK2/DSCF2554-copy.jpg

The colors in this one (24"x27") are really good I think, and the randomness in their distribution is well balanced by the discipline of the diamond lattice.

https://i.postimg.cc/G3Sb3NXn/Emry-Jaf-No-2.jpg

Comments welcome!

Lloyd Kannenberg

[Filiberto Boncompagni]

Thanks, Lloyd. :cheers:

I prefer the second one. Those colors transmit me a vibrant, heartily feeling. Guess the 'vibration' is due to the nice abrash in the blues and greens.

The first one is wonky. The colors are good.

Again, if wonkiness is one of the criteria ? as I said before in this thread ? that one has plenty of it.

Wonkiness that I like: the three partial diamond with a different design i.e. the color bands.

Wonkiness that I don't like: the teared-apart-and-glued-back-misaligned line in the four-out-of-five full diamonds in the bottom.

Which summons the eternal question: did they do it on purpose (and, if so, why?) or was it an unskilled weaver that replaced the skilled one for a while? :confused:

[Joel Greifinger]

Hi Lloyd and all,

Your second "bleeding the border" model looks terrific. The two outlying apricot diamonds protruding into that intriguing border are real standouts. :clap::laughing_2:

It's interesting to see the degree to which the 'into the border' maneuver creates a floating unit in different examples. In this one, that belongs to some friends of mine, it is dramatic:

https://i.postimg.cc/BvxfKmhC/Irene-Jaf.jpg

On the other end, in this chuval the incursion over the edge is very subtle:

https://i.postimg.cc/T356RdgF/Jaf-Derek-copy.jpg

And the effect is quite different when the 'bleeding' isn't symmetrical. When I went to post this bag face of mine, I realized that it is, in fact, the same as the one that Lloyd posted in the 2007 thread. The color difference between the photos is striking:

https://i.postimg.cc/FK75P9sD/Jaf-bf-Detlev-copy.jpg
the 'bleeding into the border' subgroup. They are not rare... but not common either. I think the 'bird's foot' border in Mark's second figure is considerably scarcer.

I agree that there are seemingly fewer 'bird's foot' border examples. The one from the Hopkins article has a different palette than I remember seeing in most others of the type:

https://i.postimg.cc/gkJpTqJY/Hopkins-chicken-Jaf.jpg

I've seen a number of others more resembling this one:

https://i.postimg.cc/bvXjr7RJ/Opie-Jaff-copy.jpg

And then there is the Jaf with atypical diamond field design that I posted earlier, that combines elements of the 'flag' and 'bird's foot' borders:

https://i.postimg.cc/Df9K97PL/Jaf-w-alternative-diamonds.jpg

Joel

[Dinie Gootjes]

So many great ways to bleed! Lloyd, though your second example gets the beauty prize, I also love that first one. Just to know the story behind that...
Joel, your first example floats beautifully, and with good colours. I love that one. The ones with the bird's foot border tend to be outliers a bit, structurally too. I hope to get back to them on the weekend. In the meantime one of mine which bleeds on one side, and gets into modern art on the other.

https://i.postimg.cc/44tm0qzr/killer-jaff-Lars-Bonnevier.jpg

[Lloyd Kannenberg]

I'm not much for speculation, but it is interesting to wonder about how often "bleeding" Jafs have as minor border the chain of small diamonds on a white ground, and how seldom that border is found elsewhere. Looking back through the posts, #6 (Joel) has the sole "elsewhere" example; for the rest, #32 (Dinie), #42 (me), #44 (Joel), #45 (Dinie). For good measure, here's one more:

https://i.postimg.cc/tCZX2JYf/Jaf-bagface-bleeding.jpg

Doesn't this suggest that the weavers were a very close-knit group?

[Dinie Gootjes]

Hi Lloyd,

That is an interesting observation, but it must have something to do with our choices. I went through my virtual Jaff collection, and when I was no more than a quarter through, I had already found 15 examples of the white ground minor border with the small diamonds, and not a single one has a bleeding border. I was hoping you were right, because that would have been a nice find, but alas :flush:.

[Lloyd Kannenberg]

Thank you Dinie! Another theory down the tubes. Don't worry, I have others. Here's a chainless bleeder. At 104x71 cm it is my biggest example.


https://i.postimg.cc/yxmJVjCt/Emry-Jaf-No-1.jpg


Your database must have many more.

[Dinie Gootjes]

That is a heavy beast by the looks of it, Lloyd! And I am waiting for your next theories :cheers:.

In over 500 Jaffs I have found around 35 bleeders, chained and chainless, suffering from everything between paper cuts and major surgery. But a few weavers have found ways to finish their diamonds without spilling blood. They simply push the border out a tiny bit, see lower left diamond:

https://i.postimg.cc/VLvFN08b/Hakiemie-RR-5-a-2-x2-cotton-warps.jpg

Does anyone have a theory why weavers are obviously free to let the field intrude on the side borders, but never on top or lower borders? I was on the look out for that to happen, but I didn't find a single instance :felix:.

[Filiberto Boncompagni]

Interesting question, Dinie.

I have only a partial answer: the field doesn't intrude in the bottom border because it simply doesn't exist yet.
At that point of her job, the weaver has in front of her only the border strip, nothing else.

On the other hand, the same logic doesn't apply to the upper border :baffled:

I didn't find a single instance (of field intruding into the top or lower border) either. :(

[Chuck Wagner]

Hi all,

I'm really impressed with some of the pieces in this thread. Even though the common opinion is that thousands of these things were made, there are always pieces that stand out.

I'm particularly fond of those with the white ground border with elongated hexagons containing the "S" motif, and the palette in Joel's piece is outstanding.

The "leaky border" subtype provides an interesting discussion genre as well.

Unfortunately, we don't own any of either type, so I'm waiting until those are depleted and we move on to field motifs that don't go to the border and as a result there is an absurd fill pattern in the void space...

Regards
Chuck

[Chris Countryman]

Hi Everyone,
Cool to see so many variations on a common theme. I love the ones in which the diamonds are breaking through the borders.
Here is mine. The weaver appears to have changed her mind from mini khana to jaf about 10% of the way into the field. She didn't miss a knot in the boarders. Just fun
Chris
http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/Countryman-Jaf.jpg

[Dinie Gootjes]

Hi Filiberto,

I have only a partial answer: the field doesn't intrude in the bottom border because it simply doesn't exist yet.
At that point of her job, the weaver has in front of her only the border strip, nothing else.


I get that, and technically you are right, but as one bag of each pair is woven upside down, I had to check both top and bottom. :duel:

[Filiberto Boncompagni]

Dinie,

Well, in any case you found that the bleeding is always on the sides, didn't you?

Chris,

Either you send your image to one of us (see our addresses on the home page) or you follow Joel's instructions here:
http://www.turkotek.com/VB37/showthread.php?t=791 5

Regards,

Filiberto

[Joel Greifinger]

Does anyone have a theory why weavers are obviously free to let the field intrude on the side borders, but never on top or lower borders?
we move on to field motifs that don't go to the border and as a result there is an absurd fill pattern in the void space...

Hi all,

While I don't have a definitive answer to the 'why not top or bottom?' question, the transitioning from offset knotting for the field diamonds to the vertical knot alignment of the side borders seems a relevant context.

https://i.postimg.cc/hPdHFSQv/Offset-knot-transition.png

As Marla Mallett points out, "In such pieces, where offset field and vertically aligned border meet there are extra warps in alternate rows that must be dealt with in some way. Occasionally, weavers have left these warps unknotted. At other times, they have tied symmetrical knots on three warps. On the back of the fabric these are larger and lop-sided. More commonly, two knots are crowded onto three warps, overlapping to share a single warp... To avoid the uneven weft buildup that occurs if overlapping knots are tied on the same warps, row after row, some weavers have made their transitions erratically in field areas near the border."
See Marla's website for much more on offset knotting: http://www.marlamallett.com/offset_knotting.htm

Since the weavers of these diamond bags with offset knotting in the field had to come up with solutions to the 'transition to vertical' problem on the sides in any case, it makes sense that they might try out design possibilities like 'bleeding the border' or the sort of 'fill' that Chuck mentions.

Joel

[Filiberto Boncompagni2]

Hi Joel,

Well, yes, I see what you mean. Offset knotting could have been an incentive to those bleedings...

[Dinie Gootjes]

Hi Joel,

Intriguing idea. It would be interesting to see how these transitions are usually handled in Jaff. Whether there is much experimentation, and whether the solutions are different for the bleeding rugs. I had never really looked at the transitions. I now see that I have a picture which illustrates how every other row there is a knot tied onto three warps, with one regular node on the right, and a double width node on the left. These are all above each other. The picture shows the back of the Jaff with the two full diamonds from frame #32. Look at the stacks of knots on the left.

https://i.postimg.cc/yNkKwm9y/Jaff-Murathan-009-2.jpg

[Dinie Gootjes]

Hi Joel,

Since the weavers of these diamond bags with offset knotting in the field had to come up with solutions to the 'transition to vertical' problem on the sides in any case, it makes sense that they might try out design possibilities like 'bleeding the border' or the sort of 'fill' that Chuck mentions.

Upon further thought, how much 'coming up with solutions' would there be in a weaving community that had been working with these transitions for generations? Maybe there are different solutions in use with Jaff, but wouldn't a weaver learn the technique her relatives use, the same way they learn other parts of the weaving process? It is not as if whichever solution she uses, makes any difference for the final look of her bag.

[Filiberto Boncompagni2]

Chris' image has been inserted in his post.

That's another strange one!

[Chuck Wagner]

Chris,

That is a - great - piece. Is it possible for you to post a few closeups of the back, including the motif transition ?

I would have bought it solely for the Tyrannosaurs on the closure tabs, the rest is icing on the cake...

Regards
Chuck