Jaf Kurd Bagface

[Joel Greifinger]

As for the partially asymmetrical (i.e. with symmetric elements)...I would prefer a good symmetrical one to a bad asymmetrical, of course.

Hi Filiberto,

Here's one with the 'S' border and a central white diamond that might suit you:

https://i.postimg.cc/k4vP0S5h/Burns-S-Jaf.jpg

This one from that category feels a bit 'tidy', but I think still has a certain dynamism:

https://i.postimg.cc/qqvSWZSz/Jaf-bf-Hans-copy-edit.jpg

This one is bilaterally symmetrical and its 'S' border almost disappears into the dark red background. Still...

https://i.postimg.cc/k5W0SSWX/Wouter-Jaf.jpg

Joel

[Filiberto Boncompagni2]

I like the first two.

The first has a nice back as well.

The second has a better composition but no S border.

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Ok, send them both...

Thanks

[Joel Greifinger]

The second has a better composition but no S border. :confused::confused: :confused:


Didn't realize you were such a specialized collector. :laughing_1:

Joel

[Dinie Gootjes]

It is funny that the two more formally drawn S borders are both on a non-white background, while the 'regular' one is just about invariably on a white ground.

[Dinie Gootjes]

I agree with Joel that a Jaff bag need not be asymmetrical in order to be visually pleasing and artistically well planned. I also doubt whether the weavers shared Hopkins' opinion, seeing the many bags that 'sin' against that rule.

There is a group of Jaffs where the weaver makes concentric diamonds of her diamonds, in the process setting up whole lines of the same diamonds abutting each other on two sides. I think this is a beautiful example. Filiberto: an S border, so I trust to hear from you :cheers:.

https://i.postimg.cc/fbKkfvfw/Patrick-Pouler-RR-13-a.jpg

There are other ones where the top is cut off (was that accidental or not?). I love the way this sets up a rising movement to the design. I still am mad at myself for having missed out on this one :cry:.

https://i.postimg.cc/g2pgwYMf/Douglas-Stock-RR-1-a-2-8x3-8-875-later-400.jpg

[Filiberto Boncompagni2]

I just had a look to the discussion we had in 2007 about the 'Criteria for Judging Jaff Kurd Bags'.
I post here the link again:
http://www.turkotek.com/misc_00078/jaff.htm

The thread is quite long and I read it quickly but - unless I missed it - at the time the 'asymmetrical vs. symmetrical composition' point of view wasn't raised. It was more about craftsmanship and color.

Dinie, you can look at my Jaf pieces, posted there at around 2/3. Those are old photos that don't do justice to the real nice colors. I think nowadays I would be able to do better, but I am not at home.
I do like the faces of my complete bag. They are of the asymmetrical type albeit they are not among the best example. The big one, the 'chuval' format is symmetrical, and has exquisite colors.
I think it's better than the other piece.
That is to explain: I am not in opposition to the symmetrical Jaf layout and indeed you first example is highly enjoyable BUT I still think that the top of Jaf's art is reached with a successful asymmetrical color juxtaposition.
It's there where I see real art.

If they have a 'S' ivory border - a recent discovery for me - I would like them even better. :cheers:

[Joel Greifinger]

The thread is quite long and I read it quickly but - unless I missed it - at the time the 'asymmetrical vs. symmetrical composition' point of view wasn't raised.

Hi Filiberto,

The question about the aesthetics of symmetry in Jaf bags first comes up in the eighth post of that long and interesting thread, raised by Camille Khairallah in relation to this one that he posted:

http://www.turkotek.com/misc_00078/jaff_files/jaf_camille.jpg

After some discussion, John Howe brought in a link to Carol Bier's exhibition on "Symmetry and Pattern".

http://mathforum.org/geometry/rugs/gallery/

The other feature that Camille mentions about his bag is that the center of the hooked diamonds contain nine small dotted diamond shapes. The design of the hooked diamonds is an often overlooked element contributing to the overall sense of the piece. Such variations are even more evident in this type of Jaf bag:

https://i.postimg.cc/Df9K97PL/Jaf-w-alternative-diamonds.jpg

Joel

[Filiberto Boncompagni2]

Hi Joel,

I should have said 'asymmetrical vs. symmetrical composition' with regard to the layout of colors.

Camille Khairallah only wrote The following bag enters in the category of symmetric field and though the palette is not extraordinary, the guards are quite attractive

Otherwise the discussion centered only on other criteria, such as:

quality of weave, dyes and wool

aesthetic superiority vs. out-of-the-ordinary

formal vs. wonky categories

It never developed into the the 'asymmetrical vs. symmetrical layout.

The closest was in an answer by John to Wendel:

Since we are, in part, attempting to assemble some standards for evaluating Jaff Kurd bags, does this suggest that one of your recommendations is that other things being equal, drawing that projects "symmetry" is to be preferred over that which projects "asymmetry?" That is, is "asymmetry" always to be seen as leaning toward aesthetic fault?

but that was about drawing, not the use of colors.

And nowhere in that thread the Hopkins observations about 'symmetry of color' were mentioned - as you did in your post #19. :cheers:

[Joel Greifinger]

but that was about drawing, not the use of colors.

Hi Filiberto,

Perhaps I misinterpreted the brief discussion of symmetry/asymmetry in that thread. The introduction of an example with an elem led the discussion astray. :cry: Much of it had to do not with the field of the bag face , but rather the relation of the field to the contrasting elem. :nerd2:

It seems that it was primarily color symmetry at issue for Camille when he introduced the discussion. It was raised in the context of the bag that he posted whose primary distinction from the others was its color symmetry.

http://www.turkotek.com/misc_00078/jaff_files/jaf_camille.jpg

It's too bad that there was little follow-up to the question of color symmetry since pattern symmetry is almost a given in these pieces. The vast majority of Jaf diamond bag faces are roughly symmetrical in terms of pattern.

https://i.postimg.cc/KYrtXHD7/SYM.jpg

Looking through the twenty four so far posted in this thread, all at least attempt a bilaterally-symmetrical pattern. In fact, in that earlier thread, one of the rare unremarked elements of one of the two bags with which Steve Price started the thread was its asymmetrical field pattern:

http://www.turkotek.com/misc_00078/jaff_files/jaf_1_front.jpg

But now, thirteen years later, we have the opportunity to refocus. :deadhorse:

Joel

[Filiberto Boncompagni2]

...and to re-read again, this time at a slower pace, that long thread, to make my point... :rant: :monalisa:

[Joel Greifinger]

Hi Dinie,

One of the interesting aspects of the first of your symmetrical color layout examples in post #25 is that while maintaining its pattern symmetry, diamonds on the sides emerge from the frame of the field into the border, bringing the concentric diamond unit above the background surface.

https://i.postimg.cc/fbKkfvfw/Patrick-Pouler-RR-13-a.jpg

This "bleeding the borders" move also sometimes is seen on Jaf bags with larger scale diamonds, like this:

https://i.postimg.cc/9QCpg80y/Jaf-w-big-diamonds-copy-2.jpg

and, to different effect, in the context of an asymmetrical pattern, as in this bag face posted by Lloyd Kannenberg in the 2007 thread:

http://www.turkotek.com/misc_00078/jaff_files/jaf_lloyd.jpg

Joel

[Dinie Gootjes]

Joel, here is one from eBay years ago that will not get a prize for colours, but it definitely wins the Floating Field Cup.

https://i.postimg.cc/T3kVHr7r/uncle-griff-e-B-1-a-66x58-85.jpg

Filiberto, I remembered your chuval bag, I have always liked that two diamond design, and the colours in the close up are wonderful. You don't often see Jaffs in that extreme, wide format.
I have one that is basically similar to yours, but the weaver decided she needed a bit more height. Because she then used a deep apricot (normal people would say 'orange' :pie:) in the top diamond, that extra part rather draws the eye. Some days I think it gives the field a rising dynamic, and I like it, other days I think it takes away from the strong two diamond effect yours has :rolleyes:. And of course your two diamonds are restfully identical.

https://i.postimg.cc/Pq1tqkLK/Jaff-Murathan-004.jpg

[Filiberto Boncompagni2]

Joel, Dinie,

those Jaf gals really tried their best to find different combinations of irregularities: bleeding borders (symmetrical and asymmetrical), broken border or floating out-of-center field (as in Dinie's last post), color asymmetries...
Not all of them aesthetically successful, I have to say.

The weaver of my 'chuval' format must have been either a lazy one or a nonconformist.
I am grateful to her for that, all considered. :monalisa:

[Joel Greifinger]

Filiberto,

Is this the chuval that you and Dinie are discussing?:

http://www.turkotek.com/salon_00088/s88t6_files/Kurdface2.jpg

Here's a link to the thread on Jaf bags in the discussion of Michael Wendorf's salon on Kurdish weavings where it first (I believe) appeared on Turkotek:

http://www.turkotek.com/salon_00088/s88t6.htm

Joel

[Filiberto Boncompagni2]

Yup!
My innate modesty prevented me to post it here, since I did it a lot of times in the past :angelic:

Incidentally, I'd like to ask to both of you (and any other out there):

Which one do you like the most, of all the Jaf bagfaces posted in these threads?

[Filiberto Boncompagni2]

Or, maybe:
Out of three, which one do you consider as Best #1, #2 and #3?

[Dinie Gootjes]

Hi Filiberto,

Groan, how do I choose from among so many great pieces :nerd2:???
Because the picture quality and size in the older threads tend to make comparison difficult, I only looked at the Jaffs in this thread.

Taking the S borders as a group, Joel's bag face ends up as my # 1 choice, somewhat to my own surprise. In the end it gets my highest marks for colour and clarity of design. I find the single, strong border very effective as a frame for the field, and I love the almost-but-not-quite symmetry of the diamonds.

Joel, could you put your picture here, please? It is too late to download it etc. Zzzzz

https://i.postimg.cc/VvPRSF8r/Jaf-w-S-border.jpg

#2 is the one with the dollars and euros in the border. Much more traditional, but a harmonious entity with beautiful colours (I have a few close ups). I have long been attracted to this one.

https://i.postimg.cc/0jSPMXG0/jaf-late-19-rare-white-ground-inner-border-1450.jpg

Then I cannot pass over the symmetrical field with single border, mainly for the clear colours and strong shape of the diamond arrangement. So that is # 3.

https://i.postimg.cc/90mYzsHv/Patrick-Pouler-RR-13-a.jpg

Now who is up next?:wizard:

[Filiberto Boncompagni2]

Because the picture quality and size in the older threads tend to make comparison difficult, I only looked at the Jaffs in this thread.
Wise choice, Dinie, I am going to do the same.

I inserted the link to Joel's bag. Suffice to copy the image's address (by right-clicking on it > properties> copy the address > then paste the address between the [img -/img] tabs.

OK, my turn to choose. In the next post.

[Filiberto Boncompagni2]

This one from Cohen's exibition". Lovely greens.

https://i.postimg.cc/vmjXys2v/Jaf-11-0.jpg

This one doesn't have the "S" border but I love it for the vibrant choice of colors and its tidiness.

https://i.postimg.cc/qqvSWZSz/Jaf-bf-Hans-copy-edit.jpg

The third ones is Joel's one:

https://i.postimg.cc/VvPRSF8r/Jaf-w-S-border.jpg

As I said, I prefer the color asymmetry but not in absolute.

[Joel Greifinger]

Dinie and Filiberto,

While I continue to ponder my faves :felix:, let me point out that there are twenty five Jaf diamond bags in this recent thread, Bag Your Pardon, bumper-bottom-bags:

http://www.turkotek.com/misc_00144/bumper.html

Joel