A Boteh a Day Keeps the Covid Away

[Patrick Weiler]

Chuck,
Your colorful description "bi-colored split running-dog borders motifs" cannot stand uncontested.
Anyone can see that they're not dogs, they're cats.
:felix:
Patrick Weiler

[Joel Greifinger]

Borderline or bona fide botehs? ;)

https://i.postimg.cc/htSjkL08/Khamseh-bf.jpg

Joel

[Chuck Wagner]

Pat,

You have taken my chiding with aplomb and I appreciate that, an admirable response given the odd way we've all had to live recently.

And while it is true that the diagonal dividing line between what you interpret as botehs is in the ground color, a close examination of the variability in the border in Filiberto's maximally terse post :cheers: shows confusion even on the part of the weaver. So, chuckling semi-serious jury still out...

In the meantime, a boteh border we can all agree on:

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/P7160018a.jpg

Regards
Chuck

[Filiberto Boncompagni]

Oooops!

Post #99 wasn't supposed to show up. It was only a test for Pat's links.
:nerd2: Sorry!
Filiberto

[Joel Greifinger]

Filiberto,

And yet, it was quite eloquent. :cheers:

Joel

[Patrick Weiler]

Filiberto,

I appreciate that you posted my little Qashqai chanteh with the charming Bi-Boteh Border. It looks nice, like a silent sculpture in a wide open space. It elicited no nattering negativity about running dogs, recumbent residualism and such-like silliness.
Joel, if anyone doesn't think that Khamseh border is a four-way boteh design, they are delusional. Granted, several of us could easily be considered delusional to begin with...
Chuck, thanks for the explanation of the kashkul - "referred to as the beggar's bowl is a container carried by wandering Dervishes (belonging to the Sūfī sect of Islam) and used to collect money and other goods (sweets, gift, etc.)" Maybe it has a T-bone steak in it!
Interesting yellow suzani-looking piece. And beautifully executed boteh border.
The botehs in the border of your Khamseh morgi rug are also nicely articulated and add elegance to the complex border design. It is nice to see an Uzbek piece, too - especially with botehs! It looks like a velvet - even nicer!
However, the Heriz wagireh "almond blossoms" clearly violate even the least stringent description of "boteh" according to the Boteh Office To Eliminate Heretical Botehs, the dreaded B O T E H Botehs.
:eek:
To provide a bit of clarity on the Qashqai chanteh from post 99, here is the face again. It is 11" x 12" 28x30cm with 11x11 asymmetric open left knots. The warp is light brown and the weft is red. The complementary weft "qashqai frieze" and closure tabs are remarkably finely woven. And the red-ground border with green and white BOTEHS is quite precisely articulated.
:pie:
http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/PAT_W_qback1.jpg
Patrick Weiler

[Joel Greifinger]

Joel, if anyone doesn't think that Khamseh border is a four-way boteh design, they are delusional.

Pat,

Oddly, I also believe that the border on the bag face in Post #102 are bona fide botehs. ;) What disturbs me is that it seems to imply that I have to disavow that I may be delusional. I don't believe that I am delusional, but by definition, I wouldn't even if I am. :sp:

Joel

[Chuck Wagner]

Joel,

The nice thing about having a psychosis is that, in the end, it is someone else's problem....

On borders and botehs, here's an interesting far vs. near experiment directed at evaluating what we - think - we see.

And although of later construction, this Qom carpet might offer one explanation for how botehs came into being.

Clearly, botehs in the border:

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/Qom_Ahmadi_Blue_01.j pg


Yet upon closer examination, the rendering is rather different from what might have reasonably been expected:

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/Qom_Ahmadi_Blue_02.j pg

Regards
Chuck

[Patrick Weiler]

Chuck,

Well, those are obviously Bo-quet-ehs.
:rolleyes:
Patrick Weiler

[Dinie Gootjes]

Chuck, that is a great critter, I love it. Not quite a hippogriff, but possibly a chickohipp.

Joel, the Baluch version of your Khamseh boteh border. A lot less colourful, probably from the Khorassan area. There is more warp depression than in most Baluch rugs.

https://i.postimg.cc/vTf8VHb5/Baluch-Rini-001.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/VL4QHbGd/Baluch-Rini-002.jpg

[Joel Greifinger]

Dinie,

This one may be from the same vicinity as yours:

https://i.postimg.cc/NMjQX1Qx/Baluch-lattice-bf.jpg

That border is also popular in symmetrically-knotted 'Baluch' rugs, like this one:

https://i.postimg.cc/VvS1Gmrr/Baluch-m.jpg

And Chuck, speaking of possible boteh origins, these are from the capitals on pillars at the Noh Gonbad Mosque in northern Afghanistan, built in the late 9th century.

https://i.postimg.cc/02whhgLR/Noh-Gonbad-Mosque-pillars.png

https://i.postimg.cc/YCBTHnH4/Noh-Gonbad-Mosque-capital.jpg

Joel

[Filiberto Boncompagni]

And Chuck, speaking of possible boteh origins, these are from the capitals on pillars at the Noh Gonbad Mosque in northern Afghanistan, built in the late 9th century.

Already posted here:
http://www.turkotek.com/misc_00072/boteh.htm

With some examples from the Musee Historique des Tissues de Lyon, i.e. Coptic textiles, around 6th to 8th century A.D. :dancer:

Uh, in the same thread there is also a Peruvian Chimu piece with bothes dating to 1000-1475AD, as mentioned by Steve in post # 2 in this thread.

:dancer: :dancer: :dancer:

Filiberto

[Joel Greifinger]

Thanks Filiberto.

The linked archived thread also has one of Josephine Powell's beautiful black and white photos of the site that are now in Harvard University's Fine Arts Library collection. A bunch more of them can be found in this publication of the World Monuments Fund:
https://www.wmf.org/sites/default/files/article/pdfs/2017nohgonbadmosquep ublication_optimized .pdf

Joel

[Joel Greifinger]

The 'Baluch tradition' draws botehs in a lot of different ways. Here is an example from the border of a so-called 'Baluch vase carpet' probably from the Zabol area:

https://i.postimg.cc/rstPfBRQ/Vase-boteh-border1.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/WtLfC5Mj/Vase-boteh-border2.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/J7D7wtbd/Vase-Zabol-fixed.jpg

Joel

[Patrick Weiler]

Dinie and Joel,
Nice examples of another Baluch border design stolen from the Khamseh Confederation! Which begs the question, who came first?
As for Baluch Botehs, here we have a design that could be described as Barely a Boteh.

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/PAT_W_botehbal.jpg

The center of the Memling Gul contains three botehs and a bell.
:salute:

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/PAT_W_botehbala.jpg

In the close up, you can also see the three green knots - the only green in the entire bag. They are wool, asymmetric, open left 7x7 - 49kpsi. The bag is 15" x 13-1/2" 34x38cm. The deep aubergine is also noticeable in the close up.

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/PAT_W_botehbalb.jpg

The back is done in weft-substitution and along the very bottom are remains of what likely were long tassels of colored wool - including some yellow not found in the body of the piece. An unusual feature is the closure device. There are no slits, but loops on the inside of the bag across from each other, as though the loops would go through each other and a cord would have closed them together. The picture of the back shows a much lighter blue than in real life.

I will have to send a picture of this feature off to the Turkotek Development Laboratory and post it once it arrives back here by UPS.
:thumbsup:

Patrick Weiler

[Dinie Gootjes]

Patrick, that design is not Barely a Boteh, it is Surely a Strawberry.

I notice that I have only one 'regular' Baluch rug with botehs, but three of my four Arab Baluch have them. Not all are knotted open right, it is mainly the design and the typical orangey red that suggest the type.

The first one has a few botehs at the top and bottom of the field.

https://i.postimg.cc/vm2z7DT1/Baluch-Arab-De-Zwaan-001.jpg

This bag face has a few of the same kind, low down in the field. The ones on the left have lost their tails, but one of them has the typical 'boteh leg', so that one counts too. :duel:

https://i.postimg.cc/1t9QFCgR/Arab-Baluch-wool-open-left-002.jpg

Then a field full, plus four in some of the 'mah' motifs.

https://i.postimg.cc/X7g9cXDV/baluch-arab-002.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/3xc4nGjH/baluch-arab-006.jpg

Do my Arab Baluch just happen to be full of botehs, or is it an especially common design?

[Joel Greifinger]

Do my Arab Baluch just happen to be full of botehs, or is it an especially common design?

Dinie,

I went through my 'Arab Baluch' bags and rugs and found nary a boteh. However, from a larger sample of accumulated images, I mustered these two:

https://i.postimg.cc/SQWX02Pq/Anas-Arab-w-botehs.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/RhQqwytq/Ike-Arab-w-botehs.jpg

Joel

[Patrick Weiler]

Due to popular demand....
:laughing_1:
Here is a picture of the closure system from my Barely a Boteh Baluch Bag.

http://www.turkotek.com/show_and_tell/PAT_W_botehbalc.jpg

It is a bit unclear because several of the loops on the near side are gone. At the far right, I have inserted the far loop into the near loop. This process, if continued across the bag, would have produced a series of "looped loops" through which a closing cord could have been passed.
This is a monumental statement, because I would offer that the term "looped loops" has never before been uttered. Never, that is, until you just did it yourself inadvertently.
:pie:
Congratulations, you have just made history!
:clap:
I don't have an example of Turkmen work, but I seem to recall that some of their khorjins may have a similar closure style - but only because I have seen pictures of a lot of loops on them, instead of the more loosely-spaced loops which are used with the "loop-and-tab" style of closure.

Patrick Weiler

[Dinie Gootjes]

Patrick, this is fairly recent I am sure, possibly from a displaced weaver, but it is in the Baluch tradition, with a double set of loops at the top.

https://i.postimg.cc/d15MBmTR/Large-bag-Wilbert-001.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/dtP2tMfC/Large-bag-Wilbert-002.jpg

[Dinie Gootjes]

Joel, a quick look on Rugrabbit found 29 Arab Baluch. Of these 20 did not have botehs, seven did, the two remaining had a border with Barely Boteh types, so that would depend on the viewer's willingness to see botehs. Let's say 25% had botehs. I also have six pictures of Arab Baluch, with three of them having botehs, so 50% there. Then I remembered I have two more a actual, in the wool, Arab Baluch, both without botehs, so there it is 50% too. Grand conclusion: :nerd2: :nerd2: :nerd2:
But it seems that I like my Arab Baluch with botehs. Which could be seen as an significant increase in the depth of my knowledge of self. Which is why we collect rugs anyway, right? :pie: